A.D. or C.E.
The two points of view are that (1) A.D. (anno domini) is a directly religious, and specifically Christian usage, and (2) C.E. ('common era') makes the assumption that the common era began roughly with the birth of Christ, so changing the letters doesn't change the meaning. The Spectator writer adds that he finds the names of our days of the week offensive since they reflect pagan gods.
One of the people who commented on Adrian Murdoch's blog suggested something that seems the perfect solution to me -- go by the date of the founding of Rome in 753 B.C. I'd go one step further. Let's go back to nones, pridie, and kalends if we want to get rid of all traces of religion in our dating, although I fear someone will find a way that the lunar-based dates are related to the names of gods.
Comments
If you date from the time of Christ, then you are using religious dating whatever letters you wish to assign to the year (A.D. or C.E.) and dating from the founding of Rome is absurd because our modern civilization did not begin with Rome. Western civilization, people say, goes back to the Greeks.
And, yes, the Nones, Kalends, and Ides are religious markings for the days of the month. Even the word “month” harkens back, I believe to moon worship.
The truth is, our secular world contains the religious as well as the secular. Ancient people didn’t have a problem with that. Neither should we.
I do understand the frustration of those people who are not Christian having to refer to this year as the year 2006, marking the era in which Jesus was alive on the earth.
If there were a way around this kind of dating, then that would be good to discover.
It seems strange to me after over 2000 years of which the majority of the world has used B.C. and A.D. someone now finds it offensive.
I remember when I was a little boy back in the 50’s and we would say “Sticks and Stones may break my bones but names will never hurt me.” How childish that seemed and yet how pointed it is in this society of today. Soon a country will over take another by name calling. No weapons, just name calling. And they first to fall will be the politically correct. What happened to strong people who knew who they were and where they stood? Strong people who could not be rocked or shaken by childish name calling, where are they? I know; we removed God from everything and those who thought they could make the world a better place on their own are now lost and defenseless, chasing dreams and running in circles, shouting “look at me, I did this.”
What is about Christ people resent? It is that he stands for peace? Do not the politically correct preach against war? Is it that he represents unfailing love? In not Love what the politically correct say we lack? Is it that he speaks straight truth? Are not the politically correct the same people who accuse others of constant lies? Is it that he asks us to follow or live by certain rules and treat each other with love and kindness? Is love and kindness not what the politically correct accuse the rest of us of not having enough of?
What other religion has a God who suffered for his people? Idols don’t, but then idols can’t do anything but sit. And of pagan gods, those who are created to fit a need, can a moon god do anything but sit in the darkness and show his face only at night?
Perhaps when those who believe themselves to be so wise realized how foolish they have been, seeking to change a world blessed by a God as good as the one who came to us in the incarnate, they will see the destruction they have brought upon themselves.
I will pray for the light to shine upon the ignorant and the foolish, that they might be awakened and realized just how loved they truly are.
The calendar we use in the West has been acceped (so far) by the rest of the world because of the West’s dominance (particularly economically) of the world in recent centuries. It is not inherently better, more logical or aesthetically more pleasing than alternate calendars current in other parts of the world. It has simply been convenient. Why not just stick to it?
As for the calendar’s starting date, it is a simple fact that the overwhelming majority of our world’s people are neither Christian nor reside in Western (-dominated) countries/cultures. Hence, the birth of Christ has no significance to the most of humanity.
The “birth of civilization” in China (as well as in the pre-Islamic Middle East and probably India) pre-dates that of the ancient Greeks, and certainly the Romans, by several millenia. So where should Year One be?
Perhaps it should be left where it is. But if it is changed, so what?
Joe Pee
Amsterdam, the Netherlands
I’m certian there are those who are offended that the Prime Meridian runs through England; that God is mentioned on US currency; that France is given credit for fries; that the UN is headquartered in New York; that English is the official language of air travel; that the Swiss Guard are not Swiss;
that there is a woman’s section in many newspapers, but no men’s section and that dogs and cats must bear the indignity of being referred to as “pets”.
For almost every convention in life that stems from Western culture there is a group that is insulted, offended,demeaned and affronted. Grow up and get a life.
May 26,2006 A.D.
Congratulations Frank, My sentiments exactly. Someone somewhere is always going to be offended at something.If it has worked for 2000 years don’t fix it!As I approach my 59th birthday my brain cells have become dear to me and I choose my battles wisely.This one doesn’t warrant the expenditure of any more. Now I will forget where I put my keys again!
My contribution was simply the musings on the calendar we all use by someone of part Western, part Easern background. Someone raised to appreciate the wonders off both experiences. To savor the beauty and joy of ancient Greek and Sanskrit both. I could honesty care less what calendar is used as I (thought I) inferred.
I am sorry my comments triggered such an irate knee-jerk reaction from you.
And, honestly, if ever there was a voguish utterance absolutely bereft of meaning it must be that “get a life” thing.
Joe Pee
David Meadows, in his blog, asked whether anyone still cared about this issue. I get email periodically asking me to use the CE abbreviation instead of AD, which is currently the editorial standard we have been asked to follow.
Quite evidently, since there are more comments on this post than any other, and at least one rather snarky one, this topic not only still interests people but also arouses strong sentiments.
I have no religious leanings at all , however AD and BC have been used for 2 whole milennia ; who the hell are we to change that ! Why are we so special that we determine for all time how the future will designate dates ?
I would like to append something to my post : If the earth were to be struck by a huge asteroid that destroyed 98 % of life on the planet , then it would be acceptible to change the dates ; ex , BA and AA , Before Asteroid and After Asteroid . Outside of that , I think we should keep BC and AD .
I’m a Christian, so, although it’s Latin, A.D. 2006 works for me.
Jews follow the Jewish calender. The Chinese have not abandoned their dating. Neither have Muslim nations. I’m sure other nations use their own calendars when they don’t deal with ‘Westerners’.
C.E. is “Common Era” because big business is done globally and so needs a common name/number for the present day, month and year. It’s also used, usually without the C.E. or A.D. when referring to an event within the last 2006 years, in history books published in English. The B.C., A.D. or C.E. is used for historical dates before or spanning the non-existant year Zero.
And C.E. is used for political correctness.
Since the entire world cannot agree what system to use to count back to the first day the first primate stood up, or when life first began, an arbitrary system had to be chosen.
As Joe Pee pointed out, 2006 is what the most dominant countries on our globe (aka. the Western European nations and their former conquests and colonies in the Western Hemisphere) call this year.
What you see as political correctness, I see as an acknowledgement of the fact that Christianity is not, or should not be, ruling public life. Thus I’m for CE for AD, even tough it is a compromise.
I like the tongue-in-cheek suggestion to start again at a urbe condita, it’s a nice show of Western supremacy…
oops! typo!
ab urbe condita
Why does this software not allow a comment preview?
Well said, RomaHost. Additionally, may I add that the best estimates put the birth of Christ at 3 BC, so the current chronology ~*doesn’t* start with Christ’s birth. Another good reason to drop the “Year of Our Lord” nonsense, which I personally find arrogant and offensive. Mind you, perhaps he had a PARTICULARLY good third birthday party, and everyone was SO impressed that they decided to redo the calendar on the spot!
All dates on About’s European History site are now give in BCE/CE, which I think is a clear indication of my opinion!
I don’t think using BCE/CE is a clear indication of your opinion — that is, without your statement that it is a clear indication. BCE/CE may be adopted for many reasons, including having too many readers complain about the use of B.C. or a change in About.com’s editorial policy.
The BCE/CE system is still based around the birth of Jesus Christ! Does it really matter what it is called when the underlying meaning is still the same?
If I were to be offended by BC/AD, then I would sure be equally offended by BCE/CE! By the way, I take no offence at either, in fact I’m more offended at the half-hearted and lazy attempt to “adjust” a centuries-old system just to “seem” more tolerant.
If we really wanted to make it “less offensive” or religiously tolerant than we would change it to a large event that the whole world can agree on. Such as the eruption of Mt. Vesuvius. Of course, then a non-Italian group will be offended we dind’t use a large natural event from their region.
I would like to vote – strongly – against CE/BCE. It smacks way too strongly of modern academia, which is not desirable if you want to be authoritative.
The argument for the new BCE and CE dating is argued on the basis of not wanting to offend or “ram down the throats” of non-xians that this is the “year of our lord”. This is understandable, but there are three issues here:
1. Where do we stop? It has been suggested that St Mary’s Hospital be renamed to Mary’s Hospital…? Do we remove the cross from the St Georges Cross?…
2. We have religion in the days of our week which is regularly “rammed down the throats” of non-pagans. Should we renames these?
3. Do other religions actually care? I would argue that the moderate majority are fairly impartial. When the Gideon bibles were being removed from British hospitals Leading Muslim Clerics in the UK were arguing that these books had a right to be in British hospitals.
Overall, this is all part of our rich history, something that, I as a historian am deeply fascinated by. I believe it is just secular fundamentalism that is driving these steps.
Looked at from a distance it would appear to be a silly discussion what we call it. However it does make sense to rename to BCE/CE as a simple means of taking any evaluation off scientific dating without making it neccessary to recalculate thousands of dates plus the benefit that even without knowing what the abbreviations stand for they appear clear to anyone.Worldwide almost everyone has become used to the Gregorian calendar , be it in business, science or any other internationally accepted dating.Yes, there are several national datings in use but geographically very limited. Like Celsius it bases on 1 specifically accepted data and makes succeeding data easier to calculate and understand. We could and will under scientific neccessity use Kelvin but for everyday use it makes little sense.We could date back to 4.3 Billion years -provided we find out the exact date of the earth’s formation- but the calculation of say the 1st Egyptian dynasties would make rather irritating reading. It is the most simple way to signal the age of science . Religion is a matter of taste and has no place in scientific research unless it is a subject, no matter what colour it comes in. Someone will always be offended for no rational reason and this cannot become an evaluator for science. Offence or not is not the issue here but a value free dating without dire consequences for everyday use. Let’s call it an industrial standard and discuss items that actually require discussion.
Why change the abbreviations? Just change what they stand for. Let BC represent Before Caring and let AD represent After Deciding
Why bother changing a system that has worked for so long? I don’t find BC/AD or BCE/CE offensive at all. I am not a member of any faith but have no problem eating my turkey at Christmas.
I see no reason to change the designations when they mean exactly the same thing.
But since the politically correct are attempting to purge itself of any religious references I will adjust accordingly. When I see BCE, I simply refer to it as “Before Christian Era” and CE as “Christian Era.” This is exactly what they are referring to anyway; is more descriptive, accurate and retains the same meanings as BC/AD.
I see no reason to change the designations for BC/AD to BCE/CE since they mean exactly the same thing.
But since the politically correct are offended by any religious references, I will simply substitute the following corrections:
When I see a reference to BCE, I translate this to “Before Christian Era” and CE as “Christian Era.” This retains the same meaning as BC/AD (minus the Latin) and is much more descriptive than the meaningless term “Common.”
Why have bookmarks like BC/AD or BCE/CE anyway? Totally irrelevant! I suggest we pick a nice round number to start with and designate that as the beginning of AD. For example, 3 million years ago. Then the year 2009 would be 3,002,009 and 500 BC would be 2,999,500! Maybe choose to start dating from when we crawled out of the primordial, or even better when our sun officially became one or better again our best guess at the big bang date. Whatever, we need lots of zeroes to keep the numerologists among us happy.